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jacko1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacko1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:02pm
Interesting listening to them talk about how great it was to still have her racing at 5. I guess that's what it's like with stallions here, but with a mare you'd think they would race on a little longer. Look how good Makybe and Winx were at 7. Is it something to do with that belief that was around a long time ago that racing longer impacts their ability to produce good offspring? 
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:09pm
Winx basically had no competition.






reductio ad absurdum



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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:18pm
Irrelevant answer.
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 4:24pm
If a horse virtually has no opposition to take him or her out of their comfort zone than obviously they are able to have an easier time of it and longevity is far more likely.

Enable has had serious competition right through her 4 and 5 year old seasons. It is obviously going to take a whole lot more out of them than beating up on lesser beings.






reductio ad absurdum



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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:14pm
Enable has raced just 15 times over four seasons.  Often against 4-7 opponents.

Winx raced 43 times over six seasons.  As often as not against more than 7 starters.

Both gave their all, so the quality of opposition is essentially a moot point.

The question posed was about the possible relationship between number of starts and later breeding success or otherwise.  Which implicitly invites comments about the breeding record of top mares with or without long or arduous campaigns.

Over to others for a while.
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:20pm
4- 7 opponents.

With every one of them superior to anything Winx ran against.

Field size is totally irrelevant to class.






reductio ad absurdum



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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:21pm
Rarely did Winx have to go anywhere near to giving her all.






reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:36pm
#! irrelevant again.  Neither of them left anything out on the trackso the quality of opposition is a moot point.  Unless of course you maintain that Enable will have spent more or similar energy in 15 starts than did Winx in 40-odd. 

But more importantly you've singularly avoided the essential question asked.


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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

#! irrelevant again.  Neither of them left anything out on the trackso the quality of opposition is a moot point.  Unless of course you maintain that Enable will have spent more or similar energy in 15 starts than did Winx in 40-odd. 

But more importantly you've singularly avoided the essential question asked.



Really sometimes you are a ........

Everything I have said in these posting is 100% relevant to what "the essential question asked" 

Fine, you and probably the majority disagree but that does not mean it is irrelevant to "the essential question asked"






reductio ad absurdum



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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:52pm
If two horses try their guts out, irrespective of the opposition, they're equally f8cked at the end of the race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:55pm
Its ok, you feel let down. I get it.  The Enable bubble has burst, perhaps she was underdone from racing the girls in a soft lead up campaign. You know you would have been first on here gloating had she won. but she didn't.  It was a very weak edition of the Arc, no 3yr old fillies with there allowance, only 11 opponent's, horses like poets word, cracksman, crystal ocean, sea of class all missing. No genuine opposition at all. And still she couldn't get the job done.  Speaking of beating up on the same opponents over and over, how many times now has she faced Magical and Waldgeist ??  I guess Waldgeist must get a ratings boost to 145p on that run, beating up on such outstanding horses.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:59pm
Just for the record, Waldgeist and Hartnell share the same timeform rating of 127, makes you laugh don't it.
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

If two horses try their guts out, irrespective of the opposition, they're equally f8cked at the end of the race.

Winx whether you like it or not rarely if ever had to try her guts out.






reductio ad absurdum



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TJMitchell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Mr Lefty Mr Lefty wrote:

Its ok, you feel let down. I get it.  The Enable bubble has burst, perhaps she was underdone from racing the girls in a soft lead up campaign. You know you would have been first on here gloating had she won. but she didn't.  It was a very weak edition of the Arc, no 3yr old fillies with there allowance, only 11 opponent's, horses like poets word, cracksman, crystal ocean, sea of class all missing. No genuine opposition at all. And still she couldn't get the job done.  Speaking of beating up on the same opponents over and over, how many times now has she faced Magical and Waldgeist ??  I guess Waldgeist must get a ratings boost to 145p on that run, beating up on such outstanding horses.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:15pm
Only if you over inflate the ratings and ability of the field,  there was one very good horse in that race that failed to produce on the day, the rest are fairly ordinary. The winner takes his record to 9 wins from 21 starts and has a rating = Hartnell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:19pm
The two 3 years olds that made Frankie go earlier than ideal are very very good.

The winner has always promised that sort of performance.






reductio ad absurdum



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TJMitchell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:23pm
No over inflation necessary. In terms of the race itself, it was a pretty strong edition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:36pm
I can identify at least 6 of Enable's 15 starts where she hardly spent a penny.But that's still a moot point in the overall discussion.

Some for example may identify Makybe Diva's ordinary breeding record as proof positive that a long career on the track reduces a mare's chances of succeeding at stud.  

But many more qualified than I have examined the relationship between longevity on the racecourse v stud success.  And the general consensus is that, optimum choice of stallion aside, it matters little whether a champion mare has had few starts or rather more.  

It's a hard gig: mares have between 8-10 chances of producing a superior racehorse throughout their breeding careers.  Stallions have hundreds if not thousands of opportunities to do the same. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:37pm

Had Hartnell won that exact same race you would be saying how lucky he was to run into such a weak field.  Bottom line she let her fans down badly and couldn't get the job done

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 7:15pm
Why bring up a horse that hasn't run further than 2000m in 2 years? 

I mean, I know you're trolling and I'm just feeding but why not...
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Mr Lefty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 7:53pm
Its not trolling at all, simply pointing out a few facts that most Euro centric fans cant accept.  1) Enable raced the same fields over and over, just like winx did 2) This field was very ordinary, just as some of the fields winx faced were, 3) Enable had her pants pulled down by a horse rated the equal of Harntell, hmmm ok so that would never happen with winx lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Mr Lefty Mr Lefty wrote:

Its not trolling at all, simply pointing out a few facts that most Euro centric fans cant accept.  1) Enable raced the same fields over and over, just like winx did 2) This field was very ordinary, just as some of the fields winx faced were, 3) Enable had her pants pulled down by a horse rated the equal of Harntell, hmmm ok so that would never happen with winx lol

So are the ratings correct or not ?

On the one hand I get the impression you do not believe the ratings on the other you are using them as evidence ? 




reductio ad absurdum



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TJMitchell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 8:08pm
So you just happened to post for the first time in almost a year in this thread specifically? Ok mate. 

And again, what does Hartnell have to do with anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Mr Lefty Mr Lefty wrote:

Just for the record, Waldgeist and Hartnell share the same timeform rating of 127, makes you laugh don't it.


That would be Hartnell's career high rating, not his rating now.
"Two hundred years ago, 99.999 percent of human idiocy went unrecorded. Now we have the Internet."

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Jamal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Winx basically had no competition.




Yep. Winx is a champ but she raced in a weak era of middle distance racing. No depth. I'm glad you identify this. It's time biased Aussie racing supporters take their blinkers off and realised this too
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Lefty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 10:46pm
Or perhaps its time Euro centric fans admit that she simply aint the horse they all hoped she would be. Pants pulled down by Waldgeist, says it all really.  Lucky he didn't have a charmed run or he would have won by 4 lengths running away. Speaking of luck in running had Sea of Class had any last year then Enable would be just another one time winner of the Arc. But at the end of the day you make your own luck, like winx did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2019 at 9:32am
How did this ever descend into an Enable v Winx argument?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2019 at 10:08am
This isn't about Winx this is about another mighty mare called Enable.  Djebel you are far too hard on Australian racing.  We are different but that doesn't make us inferior.  Just ask the Ascot winners from Australia.

Now Enable has reigned supreme over there for three years so justifies a top rating.  As I said before I feel bad for her and her owners as no matter how good Waldgeist was on the day he is not in her class.  His record says that.  But that can and does regularly happen to champions.  When they loose it is inevitably to a lesser horse who ran a blinder and they were caught out by bad luck or such.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 10:47am
Stays in training for next year.




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